tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post6612614253328428186..comments2023-12-26T17:07:06.724+08:00Comments on Avon Napoleonic Fellowship: Rules Play-test: Et Sans RésultatUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-55714521999899000732015-05-29T08:12:22.324+08:002015-05-29T08:12:22.324+08:00Jim,
You are indeed correct, we (or more to the p...Jim,<br /><br />You are indeed correct, we (or more to the point me, since I was the one largely 'working' the tables) used the incorrect leadership rating. That means that divisions would have been activated from turn one, which is much better. It does bring up two points though.<br /><br />Firstly, it makes the penalty to other divisions of having a leader attached even greater and compounded further against commanders with better ratings. Secondly, the near impossibility of French, particularly, to fail leader actions (as you mentioned in your initial comments above).<br /><br />Oh yeah, the Dutch guns used 'intense' firing--they were fighting for their existence! On that note I was pleased that the fatigue effect of such firing was not as dramatic as a reading of the rules might have suggested.<br /><br />I look forward to your play-test. Do you run a blog, or will you post it anywhere? If you wanted to, I'd be happy to post it on this blog as a comparison with our own.<br /><br />JamesJames Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17897755636246185173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-18229663047053726202015-05-29T02:02:23.388+08:002015-05-29T02:02:23.388+08:00James,
I think I found a key error in what happen...James,<br /><br />I think I found a key error in what happened with all your leader action stuff including order activation! My chart says add "leadership rating" not "tactical influence rating" – that's on the combat chart, the leadership rating is a letter and the influence rating is the number you refer to. Looking them up in the back they look A LOT DIFFERENT:<br /><br />Jerome D, Foy A, Pire C, Bachelu C, Ney C<br /><br />On the charts there is a table in the command section that shows the numerical value of each letter, a D = +2, a C = +3, an A = +5. I'm guessing that would have made a HUGE difference since Ney + Jerome = +8 to the die roll and that's the worst of the bunch!<br /><br />When the dutch guns fired on the cavalry did they do a 'paced bombardment' or fire intensely? if they fire intense they'd get all their dice instead of just two and I'm thinking with a division of cavalry coming down on them they'd be clearing their tubes as fast as they could manage!<br /><br />I'm excited to play these but don't know when that will happen, watching the game at little wars was fun, there were quite a few hangers on.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06770918684706475702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-30013411380603833232015-05-29T01:17:45.958+08:002015-05-29T01:17:45.958+08:00Jim, thanks so much for this reply.
To activate, b...Jim, thanks so much for this reply.<br />To activate, by the table in the quick reference chart, the player rolls two D6 and adds modifiers. In our case, the only modifiers appropriate for the French commanders were to add the influence rating of Ney (the issuing commander), +2, and of the receiving subordinate commanders (Jerome 0, Foy +1 Piré +1, Bachelu +1). On a modified roll 5 or less the order fails, 6 to 9 it is delayed half D6 turns, 10 or more success. Piré and Bacheu (both with support orders) succeeded, Jerome failed for half D6 (1) turn and Foy failed for half D6 (1) turn. On the allied side all failed for, from memory, 2 or 3 turns. which affected van Merlen's cavalry and (later) the on-coming reserves of Brunswick and Picton.<br />Ah, you are absolutely correct, the result without supports is at the bottom of the combat resolution table, but not the one in the rule book. It that case we did not go back to the quick reference sheet, but instead went hunting through the rules for the answer. So, I apologise to the rules. The result is to "rout to their Reformation Area" (6–12" behind the division), which I disagree with, but it is there.<br />We used the "For Final Release Review" version of the rules. Mr Ensteness said that this was little changed, so would be fine for our play-test.<br />We are happy to interpret rules and, of course do. That said, we are probably spoilt with Shako as in a set of rules that, in the case of the published Shako II, is 96 pages long, printed in a font around the size of Arial 12, with lots of spacing (130 pages when you count the tables that we rarely, if ever consult), we are able to find the answer to all fundamental rules. After many games, where we have disagreed consistently with the rules (particularly changes between version I and II) or found them wanting (for Cossacks) we have reverted to the original rules or written our own rules (squares, divisional morale).<br />Et Sans Resultat is 40 pages of main rules, printed in a font around the size of Arial 10. That extends to 74 pages with Appendices and two pages of Index. There is a fair amount of detail, so I'd expect the fundamentals to be there, especially for first-time players of the rules to work through.James Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17897755636246185173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-62878732733566162782015-05-29T00:10:02.412+08:002015-05-29T00:10:02.412+08:00Watched this game played with the author at Little...Watched this game played with the author at Little Wars and bought a copy after. It is definitely not an explicit set of rules – seems that the author knows that, he posted on the Yahoo group a couple days ago about it, he seemed to say it was intentional that if he felt the exact use of a rule didn't matter then he didn't want to "complicate" the rules with lots of examples. He actually used your example of a unit retiring behind support! That doesn't bother me but I can totally see how it would lead some players to frustration.<br /><br />You guys used a pre-published copy – did the author offer you the release copy? Some of the stuff you struggled with seems "fixed" in the one I bought – for instance it says right on the combat chart what happens to units that lose combat without support. Order activations looked to go pretty easy in the Little Wars game it seemed almost impossible for the French to fail their activations, the Russians didn't even seem to struggle until they were in the fight! Looking at the modifiers table for activating orders it seems like worst case is you need an average die roll to pass. In your play test how did your French fail to activate?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06770918684706475702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-61355995445841073852015-05-26T18:14:09.428+08:002015-05-26T18:14:09.428+08:00It's great what people are doing with Blackpow...It's great what people are doing with Blackpowder--big games, lots of players, emphasis on fun, but they are not for us either. Too fast-play, beer and skittles kind of thing.<br />We find that Shako is a good compromise. Still sufficient detail, but you don't get bogged down in large games. Have you tried them? You could even still use your large units at a pinch as the actual size of units is somewhat abitrary. We find that they scale up and down easily, within reason. You already use the scenarios...haha!!James Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17897755636246185173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-17540838041624879372015-05-26T17:25:15.589+08:002015-05-26T17:25:15.589+08:00I see nothing in these rules to tempt me and like ...I see nothing in these rules to tempt me and like you cannot quite get my head around the lack troop density - our Quatre Bras was wall to wall bodies - this looks more like DBA on a large board!<br />We're perfectly happy to nose around other sets but have yet to find anything to challenge GdeB although as our games get bigger & bigger the games get longer & longer, maybe there is a happy medium big battalion set out there? Not including Black Powder please.<br />Great review James, have fun,<br />Jeremy warpaintjjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08997436342156047352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-71112725697322716802015-05-26T17:25:00.001+08:002015-05-26T17:25:00.001+08:00I see nothing in these rules to tempt me and like ...I see nothing in these rules to tempt me and like you cannot quite get my head around the lack troop density - our Quatre Bras was wall to wall bodies - this looks more like DBA on a large board!<br />We're perfectly happy to nose around other sets but have yet to find anything to challenge GdeB although as our games get bigger & bigger the games get longer & longer, maybe there is a happy medium big battalion set out there? Not including Black Powder please.<br />Great review James, have fun,<br />Jeremy warpaintjjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08997436342156047352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-84953847272161569892015-05-26T14:51:15.493+08:002015-05-26T14:51:15.493+08:00Thanks for your encouraging comments as ever Jonat...Thanks for your encouraging comments as ever Jonathan. I can only hope that the effort we went to is used/appreciated.<br /><br />You are dead right, of course, we do bring our biases to such activities. However, in this case, I think it was less in evidence than normal as we were not trying the rules as a serious contender for adoption by us. Therefore we could openly and honestly merely play them 'as writ'. Naturally, the more we got bogged down in questions of detail that did not seem to be answered, the more we compared where we'd have got to with another set.<br /><br />As you have a published copy, I'd be interested to know if there are any changes compared with the 'final release review' version that we used. Could you look at some of the aspects that I mentioned above to see if you can find them in the rules?<br />1. Tables of modifiers and results for calculating leader actions not present in the rule booklet (although printed on the quick reference sheets)?<br />2. Clarification of the order of attempting leader actions. Is it in the order presented in the table on p 15, or at the player's discretion?<br />3. Can you see where it is specified exactly how a losing unit falls back behind support? Is it immediately behind or x inches? What happens if there is no support? Page 28 specifies support, but not how the fall back works.<br />4. If you are keen, have a go at working through the skirmish combat. Perhaps put a few figures out as opposing divisions and do a calculation. Does it seem a lot of mucking around to you to then merely reduce the effectiveness of the division as per combat resolution?<br /><br />I'm most keen to see what the experiences of others are with these rules. Rules a quite a personal thing, so no doubt they will be ideal for certain players and groups. All the more reason to have these problems ironed out.James Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17897755636246185173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-8558939731374745572015-05-26T08:30:18.591+08:002015-05-26T08:30:18.591+08:00James, thank you for the review and the time spent...James, thank you for the review and the time spent to actually attempt a play-through. Often times we see reviews whereby the reviewer simply reads the rules and imagines how they "might" play without having pushed any lead around the table. For your test, that certainly was not the case. I congratulate you! Your group made a valiant attempt and I am sure the author appreciates that effort even if the final account is not favorable.<br /><br />I, too, have a pre-pub version of the rules but the set never saw any action on my gaming table. I would have liked to give them a go and still may.<br /><br />For me, it is difficult to judge a set of rules or game on only one playing. So many outcomes can be quite singular in nature and may not represent the "average" result. With that in mind, could your preconceptions regarding your favored rules, Shako, have influenced your initial impressions? Sometimes different is not bad but...different!<br /><br />Since a game/ruleset is usuallymirrors the author's view (bias) of combat and what he deems important, when I first pick up rules or game for consideration I ask myself if I buy into the author's viewpoint. If not, then no matter how hard I try, my bias can taint the outcome.<br /><br />Great job on an interesting review and play-through.Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-42823359396544814572015-05-25T12:35:52.361+08:002015-05-25T12:35:52.361+08:00Interesting point raised by Julian above.
I am not...Interesting point raised by Julian above.<br />I am not a huge collector of rules, but I still have of the order of six sets of rules for Napoleonics that have not made it past the reading stage, a similar number that did not survive past one or two play-tests. There are the two sets that I have used in the past which are now in dis-use.<br />That leaves our preferred set, Shako (which we have still found the need to adapt) plus General de Brigade that I am happy to use. Add to this Napoleon's Battles that I'll use as friends at the NWS do.<br />A think about rules used by bloggers various would have "homespun" rules as the winner in terms of number of users (or course, this is a non-homogenous set). Others that seem to be used regularly are General de Brigade, Blackpowder, Shako, Napoleon's Battles. Also mentioned a fair bit are Lasalle, Le Feu Sacre, Field of Battle and Grande Armée. Blucher may be added to that list if people who are looking at them adopt them--why you want to use rules with blinds is beyond me, but that's my bias!<br />So, of the 50s?, 100s? of rules for Napoleonic wargaming, only a handful are used regularly.<br />Is this qualitative 'analysis' anywhere near accurate?<br />(I suspect that the story is similar of rules in languages other than English).James Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17897755636246185173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-69259109914774158522015-05-25T12:23:04.392+08:002015-05-25T12:23:04.392+08:00It seems that we are the first 'independent...It seems that we are the first 'independent' play-testers (certainly the first 'published' that I am aware of). It will be interesting to see whether other's experience is in any way like ours.<br />We hope that the effort in playing and reviewing in detail is put to some use.James Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17897755636246185173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-44673480971289974302015-05-24T23:32:56.149+08:002015-05-24T23:32:56.149+08:00Thanks for the review. Hopefully the author will m...Thanks for the review. Hopefully the author will make good use nof the feedback. Having written some rules myself, I am well aware that what you "assume" everyone will understand is far from what they actually will, so having players with no prior knowledge of the rules take them out for a test drive and trash them as much as they can is actually quite invaluable. Gonsalvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-59980624430296598242015-05-24T19:11:47.829+08:002015-05-24T19:11:47.829+08:00Thanks David. Yeah, you can only play 'em as t...Thanks David. Yeah, you can only play 'em as they are writ. They have but one chance to make a first impression...James Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17897755636246185173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-47056942872389111942015-05-24T16:39:46.787+08:002015-05-24T16:39:46.787+08:00I am mystified as to why anyone would want to add ...I am mystified as to why anyone would want to add to the already vast list of Napoleonic wargames rules, especially as the hobby has had so many problems from rules. It seems to me that if one has an entire day, or a weekend for a larger battle, Shako works beautifully, whilst for a club evening, Nap's Battles enjoys widespread and deserved support. What is however useful is to dialogue amongst ourselves as wargamers about specific rules and issues that arise in practice with our chosen set.Julian Rochehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17670263328608312736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8493556920707083758.post-50536447171495172292015-05-24T11:32:44.820+08:002015-05-24T11:32:44.820+08:00Interesting review James. The test for all rules i...Interesting review James. The test for all rules is what happens to new players if the authors not there to translate or speed you up through the reaction tests.David Cookehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17148983897942472092noreply@blogger.com